How to Run a Software Pilot Program - B2B Do’s and Don’ts

Jacob Miller: If you have a B2B SaaS product and you haven't tested it with customers yet, you're, you're in the right place today. And I'm gonna hand things over to Andrew and, uh, he can kick things off. Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah. Excited to chat about this. I mean, obviously as a, as a B2B SaaS company, you have to get your first customer right.And we're gonna talk about like, getting on that path to your first 10 customers. Like it's hard to think about. Going to scale and going to a hundred customers, like unless you've served one. And I'm gonna share some things that we've learned in working with a lot of other companies, uh, early stage startups, B2B SaaS, launching our own, that will help kind of guide how you approach building your customer base, essentially, as you have questions, definitely, you know, drop them in the chat.As Jacob mentioned, if there's things after today you're watching this, definitely reach out. We'd love to, would love to hop on a call and chat or just chat over email partner and CEO. I've spent a lot of my time here at Headway. Coming up through product, coming up through design, and really like hands-on knowledge working inside of startups.So, excited to share a little bit here. Um, some of the things that we've learned and, um, I really like this quote I stumbled on recently. I don't remember where it's from, but it's something that I see a lot in founders, um, primarily first time founders. Um. Also some second time founders as well where, uh, you know, as Daniel Orson says here, the greatest obstacle to this discovery is not ignorance or like the lack of knowledge, but it's the illusion of knowledge.Meaning we think we know what people want. We think we know exactly what they need. Um, we think that because, you know, we may have learned something or have a new opportunity for our B2B SaaS, a new idea that because it was true for us, it's true for everybody. And we just know that that's not true. Right?And so you start to see this separation in. The product you create and the solution that's out there and what the actual customers need. And so the whole goal of, you know, taking this sort of B2B SaaS pilot approach is to get really close to your customers and really understand the problem, understand the nuances, and figure out how do you go and solve those, um, for those customers.And, um, I think ultimately, like here, it's trying to, you know, dive into, you know, that ignorance in some cases and also that illusion of knowledge like. Validate if you're right or, or you're wrong. Um, being open to, um, what real customers tell you is gonna be really important. And so, I mean, first things first, like, benefits of a pilot program.Why would you run one? Um, let's talk about that. I think the biggest one is you wanna capture motivated early adopters. You want people who are willing to try new software, right? I think a lot of times, um, to the detriment of, of startups, you try to seem bigger than you are and that's not necessarily the best thing for.Your customers. And that's not necessarily the best thing for your pipeline. Like when you try to appear like your, um, you have it all together and you don't, um, you will lose trust really, really quickly. And so, um, but the benefit there is that you can capture people who are motivated to change, who are open to new ways of doing things, who want to be involved in shaping that.Um, the other benefit of this is, as I mentioned kind of in the intro, is developing that deep empathy for the problem, like. Taking what you know and building upon it and shaping it and shaving the edges and not really, um, getting deep into the weeds for the customers you're serving is, is primarily the biggest benefit, um, that you're gonna get from it.And I think, uh, the other part of that is like learning what aspects of the solution hit or miss the mark. Like, where were you wrong? Where were you? Right. How do you challenge the assumptions around what you think people will do and how you think you're gonna change, um, their behavior? I think the, the really.Big goal here, obviously as a company is to make money. So converting those pilots into long-term customers and evangelists, like early on. The pilot program is designed so you can understand how to create benchmarks, um, in metrics, like what's working for customers now, what's not. And then as they're using your product, like you want to turn those early pilots into evangelists through case studies, through testimonials, through things that you can start building proof with.Um, 'cause otherwise you just kind of have. There's a gap, uh, in trust. Like if you, if you try to act bigger than you are and you try to say that, you know, you're this huge company that's gonna solve all their problems and you don't have any proof behind it, like no one's gonna believe you. They're gonna go to the places they know, or the, the brands that they know.And then the other benefit here is to, um, inform the roadmap. What's the investment case? You know, a lot of founders early on, you've raised. Pre-seed or a seed round or maybe even bootstrapped, and you're trying to get your product into market. You're trying to get your first customer. You really have to build evidence and kind of building on that case study strategy that I talked about, where you need to put forward the proof that somebody else wants this, right?You have this vision for it. Show me that it's real. Show me that there's a, you know, the problem is quantifiable and there's people that are willing to, um, do things a different way, and that ultimately helps you shape what that market opportunity is. And so we'll talk a little bit here around just PLG versus sales led growth.I mean, PLG is a hot topic these days, right? Um, it's no surprise, um, who wouldn't want to kind of be hands off with all of your customers and have them go through the entire product, self onboard, um, get the value outta the product, tell people about it. But the reality is the companies that do that really well.Especially in B2B SaaS have learned that through founder-led sales, sales-led growth, those sorts of things where they intimately understand the nuances of the journey that they're on or they're targeted and so specific that, um, they can do product-led growth successfully. I mean, like product-led growth ultimately bakes in a ton of assumptions around the context that prospect is coming from, um, the journey that they're on and like what their ultimate goal is.And so I'm, I'm sure a lot of people have seen this, and this is something that, um, you know, we talk a lot about as we think about the funnel here, the pirate model of engagement metrics going from acquisition and activation, um, getting referrals, getting retention, getting revenue. And a lot of times with B2B SaaS, like the recommendation is to move revenue up to, you know, right after acquisition.So that basically like we're getting people paid and bought into what we're doing. Versus trying to offer something free and then try to charge them for that later, especially in enterprise B2B SaaS. You know, I'm thinking 500 plus dollars per month, you know, subscriptions, that's usually not gonna end well.You're gonna get people that churn. You're gonna get kind of a mismatch in expectations there. And so what we've seen in this, uh, with PLG people who launched product-led growth out of the gate without serving customers, you know, serving one customer or 10 customers. Is you see people that are interested, right?Um, and what usually happens here is you get, you know, you have a pre-launch page or you have your wait list page, and there's this big allure of what the product could do. And there's usually a gap in when you put that pre-launch page up, whether that's product hunt or early bird, or any of the other early sites.And then you have, um, this trailing activation, meaning someone might sign up for, uh, what you're offering. Then 2, 3, 4 months later, you send 'em an email, Hey, it's ready. You have access activation's pretty low, meaning like the amount of customers that actually sign up and log into your platform, get their team invited, take whatever action you consider to be activated on their platform, like really trails off and trickles.And so you see this huge bump in acquisition, this huge bump in interest, not a huge follow through. That's not because the product's bad, it's because of like, there's so much nuance in this that you have to build that motivation. And so unless you are an expert in behavioral design and, um, designing people, you know, through a funnel, you're gonna have a hard time to understand what's actually motivating them and what, you know, speaking to the value and the messaging and positioning your product in a way where they're ultimately gonna be successful.And so, you know, one of the things here that that's really important is like analytics and product metrics. Tell us what's happening. So you can install Google Analytics, you can install Mixpanel, you can install, you know, intercom, whatever you're doing to track the funnel here. Amplitude is another one.Um, you'll figure out what's happening. Hey, people are signing up. They're not actually activating. It doesn't really give you any intel, right? It'd be this, it'd be very similar to, um, I think, um, peep over at Winter had this, had this comment of like, you're pitching to somebody on a website where you can't read their emotions and you can't understand, you know, their intent and their problems, where it's just kind of a one way mirror.Where you see what the product's doing, you don't know why. Um, and so that's why, you know, early on my recommendation and, and what I believe in is to, to do these sales led growth motions for pilot programs and those conversations and that, that one-on-one time with customers in your market who are trying to solve the problem you're solving, um, helps us learn quicker.Helps us reduce risk and deliver value sooner. And ultimately that just means like more people are gonna get value out of the product you're offering and more people are going to, um, ultimately, you know, refer other people ret, you know, um, stay customers of the product and that sort of thing. Um, because you can start to understand the nuances of your customer, I think it's easy to kind of hide behind, you know, a login and say, oh, go log in through our platform.If you've tried it, you know that that is kind of a fool's errand. Um, in most cases where it seems great, it seems like hands off. Um, you have to really develop that empathy and that that level of understanding of your customers, where you can, um, bake that into a product led motion versus starting product led and then trying to figure out, you know, why people dropped.It's usually reversed. So not against product-led growth. I think it's a great growth mechanism for a lot of companies and a lot of companies have done it well. Early on, if you don't have 10 customers and you haven't served one person that way, you really need to get in the weeds and get out of this mindset of, you know, hey, tech is gonna automate my entire job.Um, so here, you know, the, the recommendation is at first, if you're launching this pilot program, it means you don't have any customers yet. It means you're trying to, you know, create a new way of doing things. You really need to be hands on. With your customers. And so that kind of gets into like some high level of, you know, overview between product-led growth and sales led growth and some of the, the core things you get out of it.Um, as you look at the pilot program, just rules of thumb. Um, some of these are good tenants for also sales, right? And so some of these principles are things that we have in our sales process, things that we recommend to other people, but they're things where, um, ultimately. You're trying to gain the most understanding and the most learning from, um, from these conversations.So one of the things is like, never run free pilots. And, you know, I think there's a, there's been a sweeping change across, um, venture backed companies now where essentially, you know, you're going from this huge bet into a profitable company. Like you can build a profitable company from day one. Um, or cashflow positive maybe is, uh, is the right term.Um. Where essentially you can charge people for what you're offering, like there is somebody out there, um, especially in that early adopter space where you're a new product that will pay you for incremental value. Right. There was another quote I just heard today. I forget, um, who said it, but it was like, for you to make a huge impact, your idea only needs to be 10% different.Better than what's out there, right? Not, not this 10 x change. Like people are willing to pay you for, um, the results that you can generate. And so not running those free pilots, um, just to kind of hang on this for a minute, means that they're more invested in the process. Means you try to avoid them signing up for an account and never, um, getting back to you saying, oh, well, it's not really a priority.It helps you screen people that are really motivated. To, to act. And that's what you want out of a pilot program. Like you want to accelerate your learning and you having them pay is a way for them to, um, get invested in the relationship, get some sort of commitment to you where you can actually, um, have some level of expectations for them.And we'll talk about that in a minute here. Um, one of the other things that's a Corte is like never send new information over email. Like if you're having a call with a customer. Saying, oh, I'm gonna send you our, our deck with pricing and everything over early on. It just kind of, you know, it's the same thing I mentioned before.It's like sending off that into the abyss and all you get is a yes or no back. That doesn't really help you learn. It doesn't help you craft your message. It doesn't help you understand the mindset for why they chose no. And so the recommendation here is to like always deliver that over a call or a conversation or something where you can try to pull some nuggets and insights out that changes what you do.Um, the other one here is never end a meeting without booking. The next meeting we had a sales coach, uh, we worked with for many years, Scott Buchi, and he kind of coined this, but Bamfam was, uh, was the name. And so we do it here. We recommend it to all of our startups, like book a meeting from a meeting. So make sure there's always a, you know, a bookend, uh, of a decision or a bookend of a process as you're talking with somebody, um, in the pilot program where you always have that next contact.Right. 'cause the idea is that this is an ongoing relationship. It's not something that's transactional. Hey, we talk once, you let me know if you need anything, and we go from there. You really have to be the concierge of your product and of your business and, you know, get in front of that by setting up these regular cadences.Um, the other thing is slow is smooth and smooth as fast navy seal phrase, but like, don't skip parts of the process. Like, especially when, you know, we get into your first five pilots when you ultimately are talking to people in your network. It's easy for you to skip ahead and say like, oh, I know you know Jacob from this team.Like, they're for sure gonna use it. You know, he said they were really interested. Um, when you skip parts of the process and discovery and understanding what their real problems are, understanding why or why not, they might be a fit for this sort of pilot program. You, you lose the ammunition you need in that sales process, right?So when you talk to Jacob and you say. Hey Jacob, I'm working on this thing and he says, that sounds great. I'll bring my team to the next call. And on that next call, you don't have any context of their situation or what they care about or what their goals are, or what their struggles are. That conversation is gonna be really bad, right?When he brings a full group there and you try to, um. Wrangle that sales process and convince 'em that this pilot program's, right, it's hard to speak to the context that they're in, um, and pull them through. And so making sure you don't skip that is really important. Um, the other thing here is like, don't expect customers to self onboard, activate and retain, like in most cases, um, you know, product-led growth automates the onboarding and the processes and the questions and the motivation that you're trying to learn in this sales led growth.Um, there will be customers and we have a customer we're working with now where. They sent them the login and they onboarded their entire company to the product. Right? And they're using it day to day. But that really isn't an expectation, I think, that you can have. And so taking the other side of that, which is, hey, you really have to be the usher and the guide on this journey, even as they've already committed to you, to bring them in to make sure they're being successful, to, to really focus on that because like these basics in the beginning days are gonna shape how you grow.Later because it's gonna help you understand so much more of the people, um, that you're serving. The other thing, um, here is just measure everything. So as I mentioned in the product-led growth for Sizzled growth is like, learn what's happening. So making sure your product is metered. Making sure you understand where people are dropping off.You have the right event tracking, you have the right journey mapped out, and then understand why like having those conversations is just so important because it helps you build a better case moving forward or understand we're all, you know, where you just plain wrong. And, um, I think that is pretty, um, it's pretty effective because the pilot program isn't to grow and scale and you know, you can get a lot of people into the top of that funnel.If everybody drops out, it doesn't matter. And so making sure that you're designing an experience that provides value and then ultimately, um, helps people get what they need out of it, is gonna help you make, you know, better, uh, better products. Um, so yeah, I guess kind of like talking next step here, your first five pilots, we talked about, you know, the titles getting to 10 customers.Um, a milestone is, is five, kind of on that journey. And we'll talk a little bit around that. Um. You know now, but I, I think the biggest thing, and there were some questions that were sent in before this is like, you know, starting in network, like there's this notion of, um, founder market fit, that if you're starting, I think especially true in B2B SaaS, if you're starting a product that is serving a specific enterprise, a specific type of company, and you don't have expertise in that, it's gonna be a very long journey for you.Um, and I've seen a lot of. Founders early on try to create new innovations and spaces that they're not involved in. And that's not necessarily the bad thing. Um, the bad thing is when you don't, like, you can't name your first 2, 3, 5, 10 customers, um, and say like, oh, I think they would gimme some really good insights and learning, and I'd be able to kind of hone my message there.And, um, you also don't have the capital to be able to go infinitely, right? So if you think about like Elon Musk or you think about Apple or you think about some of these companies that take these really big swings. They have the ability to enter new markets and build up expertise in that over a series of 3, 5, 10 years.And so ultimately, like being able to name your first customers and have those conversations helps you cut your teeth. And then also like the idea there is that you're able to. Ultimately build better case studies and pilots. Um, there, I think the other thing, if you've read, um, if you've been in sales, you may have heard of a hundred million dollar offers.Um, a big, uh, proponent of that is, or a big component of that is like scarcity and urgency. And so when you start a pilot program and you're, you're pitching is, if you're this big dog, um, you want to compete with, you know, the who's who in the industry, they're gonna compare you as that. If you're able to create a pilot program where you're limiting to three to five customers and you say, Hey, we have this pilot program.Um, we're a brand new startup. We're looking to change the way we're doing through X, again, you're looking for early adopters that are willing to enter this type of engagement. Um, you can say, we only have three people that we can onboard in this next quarter as part of this pilot program. There's all of a sudden scarcity and there's urgency, you know, and, and the thing that you come on the back of and you promise is.That level of support, which kind of goes into like, you know, not hiding that the product is new, that it's just getting started, use it as a benefit and as a feature of working with you is that they get the opportunity to help shape where this goes, and they get this tech enabled service, which is. The customer success calls you're gonna have with them, the understanding and really hands-on approach that you're gonna take to help them make sure that they're being successful in the product and shape the roadmap, you know, going forward.Um, and so, as I mentioned before, focus on providing a tech enabled service. Like a lot of founders still fall into this, this trap where if, uh, I'm giving 'em a login into software, that login has to do everything. Like you can send them an invoice through Stripe, through QuickBooks, especially early on when you have, you know.Even 5, 10, 50 customers. You can set up recurring billing really easy outside of the platform. A good example of this is, you know, understanding, um, you know, zoom was a good example. Like they had their pricing based on, um, and this, this happened to us. They had their pricing based on storage, where ultimately, um, they had no governance model inside the platform to price for that.And so their reps hit us up directly and said, Hey, if you want the storage, let's hop on a call and we can, you know, we can get that, um, organized. Um, so understanding that like there are gonna be these edges where if you wait for them to be in the product, it's probably too late or you're gonna spend a lot more money and time investment to get to that point.Um, the other thing for those pilots is like setting up these, this regular cadence and, and commitment for both parties. Like if you're signing in a pilot agreement with somebody, there's a price that they're paying. Um. It's probably a discounted price at that, right? Or maybe your early pricing, or you don't have to call it a discount and say, Hey, this is our, you know, um, early stage pilot program pricing.Here's what that looks like. Um, but getting a commitment from them where you get the learning that you need to hone the product and you get the time from them, that ultimately helps you change your product over time, um, through the insights that they're providing, I think is really important. Um. You know, looking over now to like pilot sales.I think the biggest thing, like we talked about getting your first five pilots, some core tenants there, um, like in pilot sales, like understanding what today's look like, look like, I'm sorry, it looks like is really important. And that all has to do with like qualifying who they are and what they do. I think early on it can be very attractive for early, for first time.Founders and even founders that have served people before to try and take on, you know, they squint a little bit and say like, oh, I think our product fits what they do. Right? And you try to get this early revenue that maybe isn't gonna provide you the right feedback that you need. Right. And you're trying to combine the vision of, uh, that you have of the future.And also like, what does today look like? So understanding those benchmarks, um, for the tools that they're using, the processes, what's the current state of performance? Like, what are you trying to change and then how does that make them feel? I think like understanding that will give you the ammo you need in that sales process, but then also, um, as you move into those, those real pilots being able to, um, to benchmark against that, right?So setting metrics of success of like, Hey, it was a 50% bump in this, and that helps you go from. Kind of this, you know, list of logos and companies to a list of, uh, benchmarks and absolutes where you say, Hey, we're gonna improve them by 50%, but in reality we really want to get them to 800% based on this absolute loop benchmark or this kind of north star vision we have for the outcomes we can generate for them.Um, and then I think the big thing is setting the right expectations. As I said in the pilot, like. Trying to hide that you're a, that you're a fully buttoned up operational company that's digital, that is ready to scale, is setting the wrong expectation for you. 'cause you're gonna be stressed behind the scenes trying to keep this facade going on.And it's also the wrong expectation for them because they're gonna hold you to that standard. Instead, flip the script and try to, um, provide more value through services and through your time and through understanding and digging into their needs. And then try to augment and, and change the roadmap where it makes sense to provide that value to them versus them thinking it's turnkey.They just hop in and they get exactly what they need. Um, so much of it is, is about setting the right expectations. And so I think the other, um. The other part of, you know, great pilot sales there is guiding the process and sharing an implementation timeline. A lot of times in B2B and enterprise, depending on who you're selling into, you can get really bogged down with all the steps to go from somebody said yes to now.Like you can start activating 'em on your platform. And the clearer you are about those needs, the better. Um, and so I pulled up an example of an implementation process here of, of one of the tools that we've worked on over the years, just as an example to share of like, you know. Um, the worst thing that you could do is get a yes from somebody and not know what's next.And early on you might have to learn this. And so when you know people or you create this early on relationship with, with folks that are trying to adopt it, you can start talking about future pacings is kind of what we call it, where you understand. More of what's next? Who, who all needs to get involved from a personnel standpoint, what sort of legal agreements need to be in place?And if you're in healthcare, it's different. If you're in FinTech, it's different if you're, you know, just enterprise B2B, SaaS and utility, or dashboards, things like that. It's gonna be a little bit different. But understanding what that timeline looks like and being able to put that forward, and this will always.Change and adapt, but I feel, um, it's been really beneficial in the startups that we've been involved in to be able to propose a path forward. And then this ultimately, you know, two weeks might not be realistic. Um, but this then un helps you inform your pipeline if you're depending on pilot sales to keep things going.Um, where maybe they're like, Hey, this looks great, like this business in legal, you know, these sorts of things. We don't think these are gonna be able to be completed for four weeks and here's why. That starts to help you create a better vision of your financial forecast, your roadmap, and then also helps you challenge that and say like, why?What is it about this that makes it difficult? Is it their procurement process? If so, can I get a call with procurement and understand how we might expedite this or understand what they might need from us that would help, you know, move it forward faster? Those sorts of things. And creating kind of a, a template for future pacing helps you guide that conversation and that process where maybe you don't have it all together.You know, what you need to have coming up. Um, you know, and so some of that early on you might not have, but as you get into, you know, the additional pilots as people start with you, you're building this kind of implementation process and plan that helps them, uh, get going. And then I'm gonna talk a little bit about just kind of ongoing call structure here.Um, you know, I think like a 30 minute structure typically works pretty well, and this could be every two weeks, depending on your product, or this could be every month. I think even a month gets too long. In the early stage, you might, you may want to do every one to two weeks, um, depending on the level of involvement folks, uh, have from both your team and then also from your customers.Like is it a daily user? If so, you might want to do weekly, is it a weekly use? You might want to do bi-weekly or, you know, every three weeks, just figure out the right cadence. But having an opportunity to kind of. Um, build rapport, catch up, understand, you know, who they are. You know, ultimately you're building a relationship with them in this pilot.It's not transactional usually. It's usually this ongoing thing where they see the potential in you and your idea and you're trying to, you know, also sew back into that. Um, reviewing the latest metrics and, um, and feedback I think is really important. And we have a, a different subset, uh, which maybe Jacob can link here around our ready to scale series, which, um, kind of.Brings up, uh, more op options and opportunities here to talk about like, customers are joining you with, uh, a context like what they're coming from, the benchmarks, what they're running away from all those things. And a promise of what you could offer ultimately to try to get to an outcome. And so when we talk about reviewing the latest metrics and feedback, understanding where customers are on this timeline is gonna be really important.So it doesn't have to be automated, it doesn't have to be an amplitude. You could take this and. Label this, label this sheet up as you want it to, but ultimately like carving it up and like, what's onboarding and activating, what's the core value they get and like, where are you just supporting where they've already reached that aha moment in their, in that everyday usage.Um, so for here, a, a good example is like in onboarding, like understanding if you sent an email out to, to somebody who agreed to be on a pilot and you walk through implementation, um, and they didn't sign up. That's definitely a problem, right? So it's like either the problem's not big enough, uh, the pain's not real enough, it's not a big enough priority for them.And understanding that, like going through this process is something that, um, you're gonna have to understand that each pilot in your program, you should try to intimately, um, benchmark like where they are in this process. And these are just examples here. Um. But in onboarding, like understand like, where's the magic moment and where are you trying to, um, get them to, for them to go like, yes, like we're gonna use this with, you know, the first project that we have.And then like, if this goes well, we're gonna onboard all the other projects and like fully adopt this, you know, going forward. Um, but you know, on going into those meetings with those early stage pilots. It could be a representation of this value, you know, of, of this journey that they're on and where they are, where they're getting hung up.Um, it could also be, you know, a scorecard that understands like, Hey, how many projects did they create? How many folks from their team were onboarded? How many things that you can quantify to talk about, like, what's the expectation? And, you know, if they said they were gonna onboard 10 folks from their cust from their team, and only three people had joined, like, let's figure out why the invites were sent, but they didn't really know what it was.So maybe we need to introduce a call. And really you're trying to figure out like what's, what are the results from the journey today? And then how do we update that journey? How do we introduce a new call or a service, uh, touchpoint or onboarding call or things, or maybe it's something about the product where we have to speak to each user type based on their role, and maybe we have to capture that an onboarding and, um.The insights that, that you get from this would be really important. And so bringing those back where you can identify those key areas to support and improve, I think are really important. Um, 'cause it'd be, it'd be very difficult to go into a customer success call or a pilot success call and not know what they did on the platform, what feedback they submitted and what actions like they actually, you know, got through success.Um. Successfully or complete it. Um, the other thing is like 10 minutes to share upcoming improvements and releases. So this is kind of where, um, that, um, we talked about on another call as well, but like continuous impact loop, like understanding where in this process they're getting hung up. Then sharing what you're going to do to overcome that.That could be through software release, it could be through a service touchpoint or like a new workshop. It could be through you doing the onboarding for them to a certain point and doing all the integration from their old data. Um, but sharing that and being able to get that feedback from customers early on is really important.And then the next step is like closing that out. So what are, what's the next step here? Um, scheduling a deep dive if needed. And so a lot of times you might have a, um, a pilot structure where you're meeting with maybe two, two people from a potential client every two weeks. You may want a deep diver.There may, there may be a problem that came up of like, oh, we actually can't, you know, we can't fully onboard to that because we don't have that data or because procurement doesn't allow us to export X, Y, Z. You probably need to schedule a deep dive to understand more of the nuance around that and like what challenges that specific thing has.So then you can bring into your process here. And um, you know, it kind of comes back to the continuous impact loop stuff that we talked about. I'm just gonna share this very briefly, but ultimately, like the whole goal of this is dual track agile, or whatever you want to call it, but discovering what we should build and then delivering it successfully and measuring the impact is really kind of the core tenets of this model.But in this, you know, coming back to the, um, to the funnel example and this problem of activation where let's say you've a pilot agreed to join, they signed the contract, they gave you all you needed from a legal perspective, they started. They're not onboarding their people appropriately or the invites were sent, but nobody set them up.Right? So what's the, um, you need to improve that metric here. And so what you would do is to go through these loops, you would say, alright, we're gonna explore, so we're gonna talk to our customer. That's kind of, uh, part of this, doing customer interviews. We're gonna look at the data and their performance on the platform.That's those metrics. Then we're gonna say like, what can we do to improve this? And that's part of, you know, the process I mentioned above. Then you get these solutions designed. And so the things that you're coming back to them with in these later stages, um, in those meetings or deep dives or like sharing prototypes, sharing potential solutions once you're understanding what the problem is.And then, um, you could even go as far as doing user testing with, um, with the prototype where you're using maybe a Figma or something they can click through to understand more perception of where things are, if it's a brand new feature, if it's a brand new capability, um, those sorts of things. And usually early on for these pilots.This pilot delivery is where a lot of people stay, where it's like experiment, design, and build. You probably don't have a lot of feature flags, um, kind of built up here where you're limiting that release. It's probably releasing it to everybody, but you're being able to measure the data and analytics of how things, um, go.And so by isolating where people are getting stuck in the product and in the journey, you can then bring it down and start to focus on it. And I think one of the things that a lot of people talk about, like, should I. Focus on acquisition or retention, and usually the answer is both. But, um, the biggest thing is like understanding which one takes priority.Like retention is gonna be really important, um, but if you activate people the right way and you acquire through this sort of model in this kind of B2B, um, sales led motion, we find that a lot more people will, will build that loyalty where you're trying to solve their problems. Um, more specifically, you're really understanding where they're coming from.So, um, it's kind of the basis of what, uh, of what we have kind of to cover today in creating these pilot programs. There's just some things that we've learned over the years of helping run these, helping coach these and, um, things, you know, areas we see a lot of companies, um, falter in by, you know, having this notion that PLG is gonna work out of the gate.It's usually an evolution of what they do. Or they start product led growth with a really low price point and then grow into sales led. Um, either way, I think like. Having access to early customers, being able to have those conversations as you need, you know, when things, uh, come up or new ideas come up.Um, and then being able to steer the roadmap based on needs is really important. There's other things that we've talked about. I think Jacob, um, added it, uh, in the, in the comments there is ready to scale. Where as you go back into, you know, some of these customers, like you might get a customer that's really big because you knew somebody and they were successful and you.Launched with somebody who's maybe an earlier stage company with a team of 15, and you find that it's like it's really hard to activate them and they don't actually get the value, and you find someone in the middle as you move forward beyond these 10 pilots into a hundred or beyond. You're most likely going to be going at a seed raise or a, you know, a series a round raise where you're gonna have to answer like where your growth is coming from.And so if you start these pilot programs from day one, with the right benchmarks, with the right understanding of metrics and kind of where they are in these journeys, along with this context of, hey, what, what's the makeup of their company? What are they using today? You can start to build a better. Guess so to speak of where your growth gonna come from and how that aligns with the vision of the company.Um, so they could all be different customer types, hiring your product for the same thing. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna grow with them. And so there's more details there in that series that, that Jacob showed goes a little bit deeper, but, um, yeah, I guess we will, we'll kind of wrap that up and then open to, uh, to Jacob Miller: questions before we jump into some of the questions that we got.I love. How you kind of mentioned like, hey, sometimes if you focus on product led growth first, you might end up finding that you don't really have any clarity because you don't really know the, the, those customers that well. So it's like gonna be almost like, almost, it almost creates like more chaos to start with PLG, for B2B SaaS instead of like manually one by one getting each person in actually understanding who they are, who, who on their team is buying.Even like, 'cause the first person you reach out to might not actually be the user or the buyer. Yeah, like my team could use it. Next thing you know, you're talking to somebody else. So it's like, that's where it gets really interesting is like, you need that, like qualitative data in the beginning, like a lot.And I think it's harder to do that with PLG because PLG is so passive, uh, like Right, you're not like engaging with them, having conversations with them. Sure you can do surveys, but they, that's still even such a passive and can be a very misleading thing. Um, I know it's something that Rob and Ryan talked about the other year, uh, how like.Surveys can be really great if you have the qualitative data to back it up. I, I always think of surveys as like a secondary thing to just say, Hey, we're gonna do, we're gonna double check at a larger scale to see if this is really true based on this qualitative research, which is, which is really, really great way to do it.Um, awesome. So I'm gonna go into this first one. Best strategies to pre-sell. So like, you know, what, what have you seen in your experience to, uh, get people interested, get those conversations rolling, all that kind of stuff. I know you covered some of that here, but what, what have you experienced personally?Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah, I mean always like the better you can visualize the value most, in most cases, that's through a prototype and like, demonstrate. So like understand what they need. Obviously, like you have to understand the problem that you're solving. Showing the journey they're on and like what it's gonna unlock is really important.And we've done this with a lot of companies, both innovation teams, creating a new things in the market, and then also for, um, you know, early stage startups where you have to build. You can't just tell someone what you're gonna do if you show them and give them a, you know, a visual representation of the value they're gonna get from it.Like, selling on prototypes can be really effective. And there can be two approaches to that, right? Like getting a letter of intent, which means, Hey, we're not signing a contract today, but we're saying, Hey, we're really interested in this. We'll give you some ammo, um, to be able to go and, you know. Help you raise funding ultimately.Um, signing a contract is always great, but it can be a little bit hazy and, um, hard to do because the, of the caveats, right? Like you may not, if you're in that stage and you need to raise money, you may not be able to get there. Um, and I think, you know, I guess I would urge to be, to be clear about that, to be clear about that, um, you know, getting a contract signed for a future date of, Hey, we're gonna start this pilot and.In three months and here's what we're gonna do in between and kind of make sure that you're having the right cadence with them along the journey, um, will be really important. But, um, the other part of, you know, pre-selling an enterprise product, um, is like, you know, I mentioned like talking to people, you know, like having that founder market fit is really important.Um, if somebody called you up out of nowhere and they just presented you a prototype. It would have to be a really compelling case study for you to be like, yeah, like keep me in mind, right. You'd have to have a unique insight or a certain leverage or some level of understanding that goes beyond just like, Hey, we're gonna make it this a little bit better.Um, and so when you have those kind of allies in customers that know you, trust you personally, those sorts of things, um, and are able to see the vision you're on and, and be open to shaping that, like it's a really good mix for early stage products. Um, one of the other ways we sold is, you know, through, uh, as I mentioned through prototypes where, um, you're getting buy-in from a dual-sided market, right?And so being able to. I'm trying to avoid talking about the specific customer, but being able to talk to both sides of the marketplace, um, especially if you have a marketplace play and getting a alignment is, is important. Um, so there's kind of a few different variations here, right? If you're selling to one company.And one business. And, um, that has its own complexities, right? All the things we've talked about. But if you're doing a marketplace play where you have to get buy-in from two or three of the different players in the marketplace, um, it's a longer journey for sure. Um, and I think like teasing at the opposite sides of those marketplaces is important.Talk a little bit about, um, marketplace dynamics. I'm trying to think of which open office hours it was, but making sure you're like picking the right one. That's kind of the linchpin of, um, you know, of that marketplace is important. Like which one drives growth and drives the other. Which part is supply, which part is demand, and how do you get the right, you know, the right effects of both.But um, yeah, pre-selling, definitely. Highly recommend, um, even for anybody that has the funds to, you know, go and build their own products from, you know, from day one. Jacob Miller: Yeah. I th and actually this kind of goes to the question of, um, Nicole asked about pricing, like, how do you figure out what to charge people for this kind of like first version or this first experience, even if it's not fully like, fleshed out?Yeah. Like what your thoughts on that. Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah, I mean, it. The answer is always, it depends, but I think like understanding what else is available in the market and like doing some pricing, um, dynamics and pricing understanding of like how else are people solving are, are solving this problem. Um, the more niche you are, the higher you can price, right?So if you were. If your notion, anyone can use you for anything, right? But if you were a tool for B2B SaaS companies, that helps you, you know, with all these specific insights that helps you operationalize your Wiki and has it, you know, AI on top of it and all these things that get more and more specific, like layers of the onion, you can charge more.And so I think understanding how segmented your, your product is, is one aspect to that. What are the other options in the market? And then, um. You know, landing on a price that, that feels right. I think part of it, uh, I say feels right, um, in the sense that like doing some price testing in those conversations, right?Versus like if you were just doing PLG and somebody had to put their card in for the price, you don't understand if it's high or low. You just know they didn't buy. And so I think like. Understanding, you know, that sort, that sort of, um, pricing is important and we might recommend, uh, what we would do in, in our situations is like simulated shopping, where essentially you would, um, come up with an option, um, in a series of questions that help the prospect understand the value you're looking to provide.And then ask them like, Hey, now that you've seen this, like, what do you think this is similar to? And you start to get some of that qualitative data, like, oh, you know, people might, um. Assimilate your product to something that is like a consumer product. Like, oh, this is just like notion. And in that they start to say, oh, maybe like $10 a user, right?And you're like, ah, well that's maybe not what I was thinking. Or they might compare you to this really enterprise tool. And so understanding maybe, um. What the market is bearing now across what they're using and what, how they would, um, compare your product to other things out there is a good way to understand like, where do they see this in the value chain?Is it just a utility or is this like a core part of their operations? Um, you know, and I think, uh, Nicole, knowing your, um, situation maybe a little bit better than other folks on this call is like understanding like what the cost is today, right? So doing some value studies if you're trying to change the, um, the narrative on.And pricing is like undercutting what they're charging today by being software enabled or by being, you know, tech enabled. Like how is this changing and improving and um, those sorts of things. So, uh, kind of a long-winded answer, but there's a few different ways. Jacob Miller: Sure. Yeah. You kind of answered this other comment 'cause uh, this person asked, um, about pitching and comparing it to competitors.But I think like, the one thing with this question is like, you made a good point of like, sometimes you assume what the competitors are. Yourself, but like I think it's good for them to naturally, without creating a bias in their head already of what this thing is like, let them decide what it is on their own.And then I'd be like, oh, I thought it was a competitor to this, but it actually, they think it's a competitor to this, or it's similar to this. Um, which is really interesting. So, um, so hopefully that helped answer your, answer, your question. Um, Monsu like, like, I think it's good to go in with like, so there's a, there's a it, Andrew brought up a term called Simulated Shopping.Uh, Alan, I'm trying to remember his last name. Uh. Uh, Clement? Yes, Alan Clement has this, uh, technique called simulated shopping. So if you wanna look it up, we actually have, uh, on our YouTube channel under exploring product, we have a simulated shopping interview with him, like, or he talks through the whole process.So if you wanna check that out on the channel, uh, uh, I'll link it in the comments and stuff in a bit. But yeah, that was a really good, I think, 'cause it's like, Hey, I can set up these programs. You want people to pay for it. What should I make people pay for it before? It's like a fully fleshed out thing.So Andrew Verboncouer: yeah. And there's also like, you know, if you get customers paying early on, um, and you have these three to five people, there's also, um, I'm trying to think of. ProfitWell is a company and like Patrick Campbell, they have a lot of really good stuff on their site on called willingness to pay. And it helps you like, you know, as you're running pilot pricing to evaluate and even as you continue on, like to grow is like evaluating what the value is someone's getting and what their perception of price is, right?And so they try to ask a few different ways, not like. Hey, would you pay this price? But it's like, at what point would you consider this to be too much for the value you're getting or for your perception? And so there's a, a bunch of really good stuff there on pricing. Uh, I guess pricing dynamics and pricing psychology around like, one you have to establish a price early on.And then two, um, you know, how do you think about increasing your price over time? Jacob Miller: I just dropping the link there in, uh, YouTube and LinkedIn. The, uh, talks about value propositions and willingness to pay good stuff. Awesome.Um, I'm trying to think, oh, uh, before we get to the other kind of other wrap up questions, this one was interesting. I don't know if you have any other examples of implementation timelines and steps. But I know that, I know Andrew, you've been thinking about, um, diving deeper into like B2B SaaS pilot programs and like, uh, considering like a guide or a course or something.So I don't know if you have anything to share today on this one? Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah. Um, none that I can share. Unfortunately, they're all, you know, either for clients or partners and stuff. And that other one was kind of a unique, um, it's from a while back, so I was able to share it, but I think like, um, it's gonna depend on what, what you need to get.To get up to speed. And I think, you know, one of the things that we didn't really mention here is like if it is a true enterprise sale, uh, you mentioned a little bit Jacob, like you probably have multiple buyers. You probably have a technical buyer, a user buyer, product champion, then an economic buyer who makes the financial decision.And that'll impact, you know, if you're going, you know, straight enterprise, like that'll impact how. You can, you know, get, get into those processes. I think the biggest thing, um, that's a risk here that's related to implementation timeline and steps is like sometimes a sales cycle can be so long, it's a detrimental risk to the business model.Meaning you could get a yes, but if it takes a year to get approved through legal or six months, like you gotta start building today. Right? And so, um, I think that's one to be really mindful of that I've seen by a lot of people is like. Being able to get commitments and for them to see the value, but then implementation and timelines being so long and so drawn out that it's hard for you to survive.And so I think like balancing that with raising, uh, is really important. And, um, you know, it's a tricky art, I think. Jacob Miller: Yeah.All right, jump back over here. I, we already talked about sales-led growth versus product-led growth. Um, as far as starting, but this, this one was kind of interesting. I, I feel like we kind of touched on this, but you know, how do you get those initial, I, I thought a hundred's a lot. Like we, you know, this whole conversation is about like, how do we start with three to five 10, like really small numbers.Um, but what do you get? Yeah. What are your thoughts on like, people doing like dms or outreach or ads on LinkedIn to get to get those first handful of people? Um, and if they do that, like what should they be considering when, when they do it? Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah. I mean, you definitely can, I think software is a little bit different, right?I think the. If, if you can think about a time where maybe somebody sent an ad to you for a pre-launch product, they wanted you to be a part of their, you know, their pilot program. Like, I think it depends how you position that and, and really what you're trying to, you know, to do if it's a hundred beta users.I think like, I don't know. I, I mean, I, I always think, you know, back to our other thing, like slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Um, it'd be very. It'd be a shame to get, you know, to turn marketing dollars on and to get all this traffic into the funnel and then not be able to keep customers. Right. And so like where you see them drop off, Hey, we have a lot of acquisition.We got our initial a hundred users kind of as I showed in that example. But, um. No one stays around or we don't solve it in, in the right way. And so when I think about scaling, like you could build up a wait list, um, still, and you can get 180 users through different, you know, communities getting involved in where your customers are, you know, different forums, um, different industry communities, things like that is always good.Having that wait list, you know, probably with a screener is what, what I would recommend there, where maybe you have a hundred people, um, you're looking for people with specific characteristics. They want, you know, specific volume that you're trying to solve. Screen them a little bit and then try to pull them into those pilot conversations.So what I would recommend, so they're still there, they're still kind of acquired, but, um, turning on the product for all of them before you've even proven that you can get one kind of to value and to stay and to stick. Um. It can be a little bit distraction where you're trying to focus full funnel, um, and really haven't provided that value.So, but yeah, I mean there's a lot of stuff out there on, you know, building an audience. Like building an audience is never bad. I just think like when you're starting to pull them into a pilot program. Um, the smaller, the better at first. So you can really learn and focus and go deep with those customers.Like three to five was the example. I mean, if you have a bigger team or founding team, maybe you have 10 and you divide those up, but then you get the insights you need to then turn on, you know, marketing for a hundred beta users and um mm-hmm. Things like that. Jacob Miller: Yeah. You know, it is interesting 'cause like you could spend time, you know, like you were talking about, building an audience, publishing on LinkedIn.Talking about the problem that your product is solving, saying, Hey, I understand it. Here's ways you can solve it. You know, maybe once in a while, you know, it's like an 80 20, like 80% of the time you're just talking about how to be helpful. 20% of the time you bring up like, Hey, we're actually working on this new product.If you wanna be part of this pilot program, shoot me a dm. There's some of that stuff. Obviously you can do like, you know, cold outreach on, on LinkedIn as well. Hey, I'm working on this new program, but to be honest, like half the time when I get those dms I'm like, Hey, I don't have time for this right now.It's like, you kind, you need like that. Um, there needs to be that natural. Um, I don't know if it would be push or pull from this perspective, but like that person or has to like, feel that pain already a lot and, and your content can kind of like create that and if they're reaching out to you about interest in the program.Like that's a better thing than you go out to them and say, Hey, I have this thing. Yeah, it seems interesting. That's not the right, you know, like, that's probably not the right person. Sure. Like, like curiosity can almost like, because even, you know, even with with us, like when we do these live streams, like people are just curious.A lot of like what we talk about. They're not always the right fit to work with us or whatever. And that's totally okay. When it comes to like these pilot programs, you need to make sure that these are the people that feel the most pain. Feel it today, right? And like, and are genuinely interested in like, for helping you form this product to be super helpful to them.So that's kind of, that's how I think about it. Like of course you can, like, scalability is always like the sexy thing. Like, oh, get a, you know, a hundred customers get all this going, have all the brand going, like all these different things. Um, but ultimately, like if you're not actually providing value to somebody and helping 'em, like relieve a pain point in their life, in their business or whatever with their team.Like it just doesn't matter. Yeah. Like how much brand you have. Like it's just like, if there's no, no one paying you to do it, it doesn't matter. So, yeah. Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah. The only, the only thing I would add here as far as like, you know, how to get your initial a hundred bid users, like obviously start smaller and build that ca, those case studies and that proof that we talked about that helps you maybe share your learnings as you're working with them or share the opportunities you see or the problems that they're having, you know, you can, speaking to that can be really effective and kind of establishes you as a.Um, as a defacto like leader in that space, you know, expert, like you're work, working on kind of serving that market. Um, but if you look at like, um, Brian Balfour's, like four fits, like this would all be like channel, like where are your customers hanging out? Um, and then how does that, you know, match with your offer.You know, it's not just product market fit, it's product market, channel. Business model fit, which is like pricing, like all of that stuff coalescing together into like the value prop you have. And so, um, you know, I, I think for most B2B customers minus like construction or, you know, small mom and pop trucking companies or things like that are probably pretty active on LinkedIn.So I think a good place to start, but, you know, owning a, staking your claim in a, in an area that you're building in, I think is always good in building that audience. How many people do you let into that pilot program is kind of the next question. If you're building products, um mm-hmm. Depends how complex it is, right?If it's a utility, you might be able to learn pretty quickly and within a month of your pilot program, roll it out. But if you're really enterprise, um, you might need two, three months to really hone, um, four months to really hone and work with those early customers before you're ready to, to open the doors.Jacob Miller: Yeah. Well, cool. I don't see any more questions. Uh. And I don't have any more left from the folks that shared their questions before we started today. Um, but I think we can wrap things up. I think it was a good chat lot. We covered a lot of ground, I feel like. 'cause I think there is a lot to doing these things and doing them well and making sure that you're getting the answers you need, um, asking yourself the right questions as you're doing these things.So, uh, thanks Adrian for putting all these kind of notes and slides together. I, I hope everyone got some value out of it. I, I learned a little bit of something today, even though I work with you, uh, day to day. So it's always good to. Have this opportunity to learn from you again. Um, do you have anything else you wanna share?Otherwise we can kind of wrap things up. Andrew Verboncouer: Yeah, nothing, I mean, if you have questions, you know, reach out. I'm sure there's a lot of, you know, a lot of this stuff is very similar and so, you know, there's nothing new that, that really, that we've talked about that isn't, uh, in, you know, nuggets in other places.And so the, I think the resources Jacob mentioned. Um, you'll see aspects of this throughout and, and really it's one, one cohesive whole, and that's kind of our unique perspective at headway. Being a full product team is like, we get the experience of, you know, bringing these products to market, product strategy management, design engineering, product marketing, like all those things.We kind of get this unique perspective of. Onboarding, not just, Hey, can we build a great product? It's like, how do you get that product to market? How do you get people to care about it? Um, how do you build more understanding for the people you're serving and, and that sort of thing. So hopefully, yeah, it's valuable.If you have specific questions, reach out and yeah. Thanks again for tuning in. Jacob Miller: Yeah, I'll, I'll just share this link one more time. If you go to headway.io/resources, we have all the videos that we kind of referenced today in the presentation in there. There's other stuff for. If you work with designers, um, or developers, there's re resources in there.We have different templates on Figma. We have some eBooks and stuff like that on like the Moscow process, like prioritizing what features you build next, all that kind of stuff. Um, and if you have any questions, you know, after watching this, you know, if you're watching on YouTube or on the LinkedIn recording, um, just drop.Drop a comment or just head our website and just, uh, shoot us a, uh, a question in the contact form or book a call. We're happy to help you figure, figure this out. So, um, yeah. Thanks again everybody, and uh, have a great day.‍